that does it for us. we'll see you again at 10:00 eastern. piers morgan starts right now.

>> tonight, what would you do with half a billion dollars? >> should the government get out of the gambling business or are lotteries just good clean fun? >> my hope is to get this done before christmas. i'm optimistic that we can avert this crisis and sooner rather nan later. should the rich pay more? >> plus money guru dave ramsey on you and your taxes. >> you can't have one percent of the people who own and control more wealth than the other 90% of the people. >> this is piers morgan tonight. >> good evening. our big story tonight is $550

million worth big. >> none of that is tar nenishede unthenthusiasm of those who bou tickets today. dave ramsey is the host of the dave ramsey show. welcome, dave. >> thanks. good to be with you again. >> on the face of it, a good bit of fun. one, big, winner, what is wrong with that? >> the problem is several

things. rich people don't play the lottery. look who is standing in line snp it is darryl and his other brother darryl. >> there is a point to that. and i know that all statistics say they tend to be ill educated and poorer and those statistics are there, but at the same time aren't they the very people that need a bit of hope. because it is false hope.

that is the problem. they take the same amount of money and invest it. and so we are teaching people that a game of chance with low probability of winning is actually the way of winning your destiny today. instead of working hard and leaving laid. >> i want to bring in two men opposite sides of the powerball.

it gives false hope and it should be cancelled. >> the option would not allow that, it is important that we continue to talk about the lottery. it is not an in vessvestmeninve. anybody that is spending too much will be the first to say don't play. get help or you know someone that is do that go. every lottery has a website that you are doing well. >> explain to me why you don't

agree? >> a lot of folks have been calling this powerball fever. state lotteries represent one of public policy failures of the last 40 years. this is a government program that is based on pushing citizens into personal debt. it has become the public voice of american government today. people don't play this as an investme investment. >> you have four out of five american americans who build wealth to play the lottery. >> turn if 15% of the people

make $50,000 in a certain class, that is the exact numbers of the statistics of the people that play the lottery. i take offense to the idea that hard working people aren't smart enough to understand. my dad taught me cash is king. i think dave ramsey in listening to him. this is a form of entertainment and we don't want anybody emptying their savings account. you want to get a couple of bucks and have a few tickets and have fun dreaming and talking in this ugly time about what could

happen. what if. you make it sound harmless. they found higher are households spending 9% on lottery tickets. that is a huge chunk of a needy selection of family's income be ing spent on 0 chance of winning. it is people in a percentage of the same problem if they are not making enough. if they are buying food. we don't encourage or tell or want people to spend the majority of their income on

lottery tickets. that is an important message. let's get them help. we are in agreement with the folks that will talk about it. in your state. the lottery is the single largest source of aid. in 2012 alone it raised over $800 million in local aid. that is a huge chunk of change isn't it? >> government gambling is going to be a failed revenue source. whether it is massachusetts, california, you name it. that money you talked about is a small portion of the money the total spending of the budgets. >> that is $1 billion. otherwise wouldn't be there.

>> when he talks about they are making their money from a small amount of players, 80% of lottery revenue comes from 10% of lottery players. it is a government program. >> what do you say to that? >> here is the facts that lotteries and states begin to do lotteries because people have a desire. we do $68 million in fiscal year 12. that is more than the movie and music history combined. the integrity is above reproach.

but if we didn't have it. people are going to find ways to gain but they are going to do it illegally. that was the problem with the games. as you look at the future and the things that are going on with that. that is important. oversight to make sure you have things that you don't over look. >> thank you for joining me. i have to take a break now. >> when we come back we'll get to dave ramsey. also the fiscal cliff. ♪

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wins. >> but your odds of winning are slim. >> but it will be less if i don't play. >> wise words the irs always does win. but we know dave ramsey spirited debate there between the lottery in iowa and somebody who things it is a curse on society. if i was to win tonight and i'm going to be purchasing tickets. should i take the lump sum or the other option the cash option? >> annuity right? you can take it over a number of years. which one should i do? >> i'm a side bar on a second and come back if i can. i think he sounds like a nice gentleman but we need to know that the lottery that are

targeting the lower class and lower income zip codes. it is not right. again, the zip codes are next to the payday lender, the rent to own people. it is a targeting thing here. their market is not a rich man in town. if you are good with money, you would take the lump sum. you will avoid the increase in taxes because tax rates on the rich are going up. you would take it out of the

annuity as if you were taking it out of a trust because you weren't capable of handling it. >> aren't you being a bit of a prechristmas scrooge here? >> whatever they do. what you are missing here i think is the pure pleasure aspect of the hope and expectation of going to buy a ticket that could win you half a bill oion dollars. >> were you to invest that into a mutual fund of a roth ira you would have half a million dollars about 90% of the time. i do sound like scrooge, i'm calling for adults to grow up.

>> there has to be somebody tomorrow who will be rewatching this and saying dave ramsey i won half a billion dollars what are you talking about? >> and there are 175 million that didn't win. >> they are good when you come on. let's turn to the fiscal cliff. i know you don't want to talk about this. in terms of this xhieconomic prosperity, or is that a myth? >> i have the formal education and finance degree and i've studied commissions and i was formally screwed.

i was taught that was the proper way to do things. that is the idea of the way to raise taxes and the government to control the investment into the economy. there is an argument that it didn't work under fdr. war world war ii bailed us out. rather than that. so, i'm a small business guy, i'm a simple guy. i don't have a lot of sophisticated looks on things. i know that i have 350 employees and if you raise a bunch of taxes on me, i don't have as much money to hire people with. some people act like i'm trying to get richer and not hire people like i'm a greedy jerk. it helps me to grow my business

and help more people. to me, it seems like it constricts the economy to raise taxes. >> i want an honest answer here. have you bought a ticket? >> you know, i have never done that. i have done so many stupid things with money. but i've never done that one. >> well, you are missing out on a lot of fun. killjoy. >> it is good to talk to you. and you make a lot of sense. >> coming up. and the fiscal cliff again. turning into one of mit romney's top money men. to come home for the holidays. that's double miles you can actually use... sadly, their brother's white christmas just got "blacked out." [ brother ] but it's the family party! really jingles your bells, doesn't it?

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i'll call you at 1:00 tonight and i'll tell you john, i have the best idea i have ever had. you want to come along and will you say how much tax do i have to pay? >> i will say why are you

calling me at 1:00 am? >> warren buffet on the show talking taxes. joining me, two economic experts. and president bush's former treasury secretary. welcome to you both. let me start with you. when warren buffet. one of the richest men in the history of planet earth is demanding to be taxed more, tell me why he shouldn't be granted that wish. i'm sure it makes him feel good when he says that tax scheme that he is talking about would do precious little call it a drop in the pond to fix that condition. it may be part of a solution.

it is so far from being the solution and the second reason is you know some things people stand on principle on, there is a reason that over the years the tax code has had lower taxes on investment and savings and dividends. because we like to encourage investment savings and we don't like to tax two or three types which dividends or taxes might be taxed. and there is a principle involved. is there a principle or bloody minded news. we shall not pay anymore taxes ever. >> at some point there is just too much tax. we are a long way from that. let's look at earned income tax. they are lower now. all president obama is doing is

saying let's go from 35% to 39.6% the same as it was under president clinton the economy did very well and it is more than just a drop in the bucket. just raising rates on people making over $250,000 would be a trillion dollar over the next ten years. >> $1 trillion is not to be sniffed at. some broke with the leadership and urged his party to extend the tax cuts to ensure that their taxes don't go up. he has a point there. who cares. >> sure, there is a point in there, i might dispute the numbers. i would argue, as the members of my party, that we have a spending problem as opposed to a revenue problem to my friend

steve's remark about the clinton tax rates that sounds great to go back to 39%. but, actually, those budgets bear little resemblance to the tax rates. remember, in the latter clinton years, we were roughly at peace time and two, they had been a capital gains tax cut as part of the 1996 tax package. there happened to be a small thing at that time called a technology boom that it led to a bubble. and there were tax revenues there. pointing to a marginal tax ra rate -- >> there is no one fixer. there is no silver bullet. we have a trillion dollar a year deficit. the math is simsimple.

you need $4 trillion to keep the ratio of debt from growing. there has to be a tax element as well. you have to have more tax revenue. we could not afford the tax cuts we need to restore a piece of them. i have not been on wall street as long as warren buffet. but i agree. i was on wall street for 30 years. it didn't change my work ethic. i think people are driven by other things this is not going to change the work ethic including spending. >> let me play you both a clip

today. at the end of the day, i don't want to quibble about the tax rate, but the more important thing is to imcrease the size of the wealth pie. the idea of keeping rates low and then you pay a low marginal rate of as shrinking pie i'd rather get the country on the proper footing. >> how do you get america back on a sound economic footing? butting your hats on, if you were in the room, what would the deal be? >> here is where i think this has to end up. one, recognize what we are facing is a spending problem. my friend steve talks about spending in the balanced budgets

of the clinton years. the spending since the clinton years has increased 50%. it is really out-of-control. and the reason it is out-of-control is because of entitlements. the budget is all of the government's expenditures, it is 60% entitlement. so big picture. there has to be a solution around entitlements on revenues again. what i would like to see is i'd like to see the bush tax rates continue as they are. however, give the process, the country, north of $1 trillion but do it by getting rid of the loop holes that comprise 70,000 pages of the tax code. these are the kinds of plans that are being offered. and less impaired growth.

>> if you were in that room and that was on the table what would you say? >> i would say you need to have a compromise. spending is a problem. but as i said before. we had two rounds of tax cuts that we could not afford. you need to roll back a piece of them. as far as where it comes from on the revenue side. i believe it should come from the wealthy. that is the group and i'm happy i'm a part of it. i'm sure you are a part of it that has benefited the most. the average american is further behind. i don't think you satisfy this money from the average american. secondly, you take it from people like mr. buffet who make most of their income from capital gains. and i'm in favor of closing

deductions and loop holes. but when he talks about the pie shrinking, the biggest risk is going over the cliff at the end of the year, we need to have a compromise. so far there has not been a lot of progress in getting there. >> thank you both very much. >> thank you, piers. coming up next. politics, powerball and the fiscal cliff. i hate that phrase. we'll discuss the financial build up. [ male announcer ] introducing the new dell xps 12. part of a whole new line of tablets from dell.

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that kind of agreement would be good for our economy and good for our children's future.

>> this deal renamed can both sides make it happen. we have our advocate and author. where are we with all of this? they are wushing out to spend the little money that they do have on the tickets. meanwhile the dead rises to $16 trillion. >> i hoped that the president would say this. i'm not holding my breath any longer. but the short answer is this.

it is just disguised. and the president and those of us who care about the future of this country ought to say that. this is masking around as a conversation. this congress did not have the commitment to address this issue and now they want to scare people about this. so this is a conversation that in some regards is a waste of time in washington. we ought to be talking about creating jobs and it troubles me when the president seems to go for that line. it ought to be about job

creation. >> the one thing that everyone hoped would be that he would come out swinging and be the obama that people were hoping for four years ago. it is kind of more fiddling around. >> one of the things that i said that i hopes he would not repeat is too much compromise. everyone saw what he was against in his first term. i don't want to see him let the republicans clean his clock. they are starting to get him meeting with the president. when he met with the president. the president signaled that he might be ready to talk about raising the practices. we might end up where we were

the fiscal cliff is austerity in disguise. with all the talk of a fiscal cliff. record numbers and they have spent little that they have left on the ticks on the power ball. is this a tax on the poor? and the numbers point that out. it is a tax on the poor. for some people this is fun and games and i don't regret or be gruth anything to anybody.

i think of the movie waiting for superman there were parts of that movie that i had an issue with. everyone who saw these kids kiting with the parents with the school meetings with the balls bouncing around hoping that their number would come up so that they could get a seat. when you see those balls bu s bouncing around. again, when education becomes a lottery, we become a problem. what about black friday? is it healthy that americans rush out with 8% unemployment. by all of these deals and so on? is that healthy to be having this happen on friday it carried on over the weekend. it is.

>> the short answer is when you have corporate greed and indifference and some bad decision s a lottery ticket isnt going to bail you out. we allow ourselves to be sucked in. we have got caught up and we can't seem to break from it. meanwhile you have these corporate ceo's who have made out on black friday. they are running around trying to get the best deal that they can. it is herecy. >> let's take a short break. president obama gave mitt romney a good beating. okay, now here's our holiday gift list.

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after you jumped buship in bangkok,n. online pricing starts at $5.15. i thought i'd lost you. surfing is my life now. but who's going to .... tell the world that priceline has even faster, easier ways to save you money. . . on hotels, flights & cars? you still have it. i'll always have it. so this is it? we'll see where the waves take me. sayonara, brah! back with my special guest tavis smiley. were you surprised? >> not at all. i think that when the republican

nominee has to run to his right to try to get the nomination and then back to the center you are going to get caught flip-flopping. so i wasn't surprised. >> i thought the race would be closer but i expected from the beginning once we knew he was the nominee. he was the guy that they didn't want from the beginning. >> 71-27, asian 71-26. he got clslaughtered and he did and now the president has to represent. the president would not be in the white house were it not for these groups. young people showed up in huge

numbers. i did a blog weeks back about how black people were pushed back. with all due respect to latinos and women and young people, it is this coalition that allowed him to get to the white house. i hope that the president will remember who put him in the white house. i hope he will remember as i have said before that budgets are moral documents. when you put your budget on the table we will see what you think of women and children. those suffering people. the hispanic community. i saw a number today, piers, the median net worth in this country is now at the level of 1969. from 1983 to 2010 the top 1%

jumped 71%. the rest of the country we are now in 1969 levels and the president has to understand that. he can't cave in on this debate with these republicans in think should turn to now to try to become more electable. putting aside your preferences. where should they go? be braver this time, have a vp pick of condoleezza rice or marco rubio? what should they be thinking? >> my preference is for the president to be more progressive, number one. to say that. since we're talking about the right. >> it's always healthy -- >> i totally agree. i believe in competition. i don't like coronations. i like real content. i want to see this kind of contest. i think the problem republicans are making in the conversation is that they think it's about a personality rather than about a

policy change. they think it's about outreach rather than inclusion. they want to be ai competitive party in the most multicultural, multiracial ethnicity in america, they have to understand they are out of step with americans. >> you have this moderation, nationally televised discussion, future without poverty, 6:30 9:0 p.m., tell us about that. >> we're going back to washington to tell the president that poverty is a matter of national security this is an issue we did not see debated during the campaign. it's an issue the president has to deal with. all kinds of things, pulling at him with regard to what his legacy ought to be. he has to channel abraham lincoln, fdr, lbj, take a risk if he wants to be transformational and not just transactional. iment to put at the top of the list the poor in this country.

we are counting on the president to convene a white house conference on the erad indication of poverty. the white house conference to eradicate poverty. a lot of the the anti poverty experts on one stage, let's call a conference, bring the experts together, craft a national plan that can cut poverty in half in ten years, and eradicate it in 25. this is na will problem. >> what's the number one problem that leads to poverty? >> jobs, jobs, jobs, that create a living wage. we need jobs. >> tavis, good to see you as always. you have a very famous voice. by the mid dulcet tones. >> it's not that diminienglish . >> somebody who has an even more memorable voice. she is a name that millions know

and love. please reveal your name to us. >> i am yolanda vega. questions? anyone have occasional constipation, diarrhea, gas, bloating? yeah. one phillips' colon health probiotic cap each day helps defend against these digestive issues with three strains of good bacteria.

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the winning lottery numbers been announced the last 20 years. yolanda vega joins me now. welcome. >> thank you for having me, piers. >> i want to hear that voice. piers, you have won. >> you have won the big jackpot, piers. >> and a big debate tonight. and the show, everyone is talking about very little else. not much going on other than fiscal cliffs and the powerball is gripping the natio you have heard the debate on either side. is it a force of good, really, or does it have its negative side? do you appreciate that too? >> honestly, piers, i have been doing this almost 23 years, and nothing but goodness as far as i can see. all of the winners i give the giant oversized checks to are definitely so very excited and, you know, for the time being, that people purchase their $2 powerball ticket, they have a

source of entertainment, an opportunity to dream, and to hold on to what they believe can happen positively, and hopefully for the best for all, and all the people around them. >> isn't the problem, though, a lot of the winners i notice end up having pretty miserable time. they sort of alienate themselves almost by default, not through choice, from all of their old friends and the areas they used to live. go and buy the fancy mansions and cars and stuff. and disconnect themselves from the kind of comfort blanket community. >> that might be because the media shows you that. i see the positive people that stay positive, know how to invest their money, you know how to make it for themselves. so many people win millions of dollars, and a small pocket of those people, negative people that you do see and are focused

on. >> yold andranda, are you allow play? >> no one for the new york lottery can play, no one under my roof can play, my husband and daughters cannot play, they are not very happy about it. >> do you sneak off to another state to get your hands on a ticket? >> i do go to other states and buy scratchoffs, that's fun to do once in a while. we can't play mega millions or powerball, in any other state. maybe their local lotto i can. >> what is the biggest amount of money you have won on a scratch card? >> oh, i think i won $250 in the state of georgia. >> you decided not to retire? >> absolutely not. and, you know, i bought a $20 ticket that day. and i was kissdisappointed on 2 $20 ticket, i won zero. >> i know you can't, but if you won a half a billion dollars, as the powerball is tonight what would you spend it on? >> right now, i thought i